058: Radney Foster

Thomas Mooney: Everyone, welcome to episode number 58 of the new slang podcast. I'm Thomas Mooney. On this episode, I'm joined by legendary singer songwriter radney Foster. He was here in Lubbock at the cactus theater a few weeks back. And I was just very, very fortunate to be able to sit down with him for about 30 minutes. The the show itself, he was playing acoustic. And it was just a really damn fine illustration of like, of what storytelling and songwriting can really be. And real integral part of the of this show came from the fact that he wrote this collection of short stories a few, I guess, it's about like a year ago when this when it all came out. Last year, he had released this album called for you to see the stars. And with that, there's this companion piece of book of short stories. And so during the show, he read a few excerpts and read like one of the the shorter, the shortest, I think, the shortest story of the book. And it just really like helps, helps like set the stage for, for the song that was going to be following it up. Just for that fact alone, it kind of like sets a set set apart from other kind of shows. And so as you'd expect, like most of this conversation kind of revolves around the pairing of those two artistic channels, and how they kind of just like intertwine and work together. That also is like you expect, you know, Randy is just a natural storyteller, even in just conversation. So like, during this interview, he goes into a few stories that, that I just found fascinating. And, in addition to this latest episode with with the grand new, we have a few others lined up that I'm really excited about. If you missed the previous episode, it was with another singer songwriter, Sean McConnell. So be sure to go back and listen to that one as well. It's also a shorter piece of you know, the interview was about 30 minutes as well. If you're interested in any of my long form writing, just head over to wide open country, there's a handful of new interview features and songwriters that I've been working on that came out this this week. Their stuff with folks like Jason Ed, Israel, Nash and Carolina story. Next week, I have this like piece with Lori McKenna coming out, and I really don't get too nervous, doing interviews anymore. But, you know, that was one that it was just a surreal kind of experience. So yeah, that'll be coming out next week. So be on the lookout for that. Again, if you haven't subscribed to the to the podcast just yet, do so wherever you're hearing it at. You sure to give us a five star review and tell all your friends and family who you know like music and music conversation. If you're a consumer of any of the social media stuff, give us a follow and or a like on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram. That'll be at underscore new slang, on Twitter and on Instagram. On Facebook, just search for new slang. It'll be one of the first two or three results. If you'd like to advertise on the new slang podcast, shoot us an email at New slang dot [email protected]. And just one last note, if you folks have been asking about our theme music is an unreleased instrumental track called Black horses. It was written by a lovely guitarist Preston Phillips. He's a member of the band, no drag County. They've just recently released a album called panhandle music. I'd highly encourage you guys to go find that record on iTunes or Spotify. It's what I kind of described as this like big, sprawling musical adventure. There's a lot of really great storytelling and just great sounds on that record. I think that's about it. Again, I'd like to thank radney foster for sitting down and doing this interview. I think it's very insightful, and it was just an incredible conversation really enjoyable. So yeah, here is the conversation that I had with radney Foster. You just recently released that new song or it's not a new song. It's an old song. It's a remake. Like I guess like it's Godspeed. Radney Foster: Sweet dreams was the original title of the song. And it was a lullaby that I wrote for my oldest boy. When he was five years old. He was moving to France with his mom. I had lost custody of him had had joint custody of him and his mother remarried and moved to France and big dispute like normally is in those kinds of things and, and she won. And so I had to figure out how to be a dad from a long way away. And we tried to make lemonade out of lemons every day. And the one thing that I did when he was leaving was to write that song and put it on a cassette about six times in a row so he could go to sleep at night to it. And then I ended up recording it and Emmylou Harris sang on it with me. And then it got picked up by the Dixie Chicks. My wife had said, Natalie Maines had just had her first boy. And my wife said, Hey, we should send her a baby gift. Because they had already recorded some of my songs. And you know, and I had been friends with them because they were the young girls hanging out at my shows and wanting to open and that kind of thing, you know. So I, we sent a little plushy toy or something, I don't know of a teddy bear or something. And, you know, some kind of kids gift and, and a CD with just the one song on it said, you know, this has kept Mike boys asleep for quite some time now. hope it works with yours, you know. And, and unbeknownst to me, they were, you know, making the record home at the time, I didn't even know, you know, and I got pitched, they said, Send us a bunch of bluegrass Stipe songs for these girls. And I was like, okay, so I said, I'm what I thought they ought to do. And they didn't do any of those, they did Godspeed, because Natalie fell in love with the song. And so, you know, that sold millions and millions of copies and became the centerpiece of their live thing. So it really became a really big song for me, because of that. And I've been closing my shows as the last encore with that song for decades. So when you couple that with the fact that I grew up on the Mexican border, my house was a mile mile and a half from Mexico, I could ride my bike to the bridge, right? You know, my mother would send me as a teenager, across the river to, to go buy stuff at the market and bring it home, you know, so I mean it. So it's a community that's dear to me, it's I know, it's very, very different. I know, we do have an immigration problem. But having men a father separated from his child, I know and understand how tough that really is. And I just think it's in congruent with our values that we would be taking children from families solely because they have crossed the border, we don't do it because you get a speeding ticket. We don't even do it, because you have a, you know, misdemeanor drug violation, right in this country. So I mean, you know, it just, it's it, it does not comport with our values. And so I was really grieving that a lot in that and sort of asking myself what to do. And I've always tried to, you know, I've had some certain, you know, social statements or political statements in the past, but really tried real hard to realize that people live on both sides of the fence and, and be fair, but this one stuck in my craw. And so I I was talking with my wife, and she said, You should do it in Spanish. And what she knows that, you know, the audience may not know is that I grew up in, you know, for generations on the Mexican border. 80% of my friends first language was Spanish, my father was a lawyer in Del Rio, who, who, you know, had clients whose first language was Spanish, and he's, he was adamant that we had to learn to speak Spanish, his children. So we spoke both Spanish and English in our home as kids. And we had a nanny who could speak English, but he, my father instructed her not to speak a word of it to us, you know, so. So, I mean, I really did grow up, you know, knowing both languages. And so, I did my best at sort of doing a, you can't really transliterate You know, it just doesn't work. You know, you really have to sort of rewrite your own song again, you know, and make it a little. And then so in that process, I tried to think about what's the situation at hand and rewrote it from that perspective, and then called my friend, really my freshman in high school girlfriend, one of my oldest friends from growing up. Debbie Hernandez, who, who teaches both Spanish and English, I think she's got a master's in both. I mean, she's, you know, crazy smart and teaches at Doria High School, to this day. So I called her up and I said, Will you help me with this? You know, and just so I can make sure I really get it right. And she did and it was a joy. I think we really captured the essence of what The meaning is in English, and also really the, the the heartfelt pneus of people who are on a journey with a small child. Thomas Mooney: Right? You know, my grandmother lived in Del Rio for me like 10 years back in the 90s. And I had some other family there. So like, we were always going down there and for I don't like that's one of the first connections I feel I felt with you growing up, like, you know, around six or seven years old. And seeing that first cover with Del Rio, and thinking like, you know, oh, there's people who come from these places. I know, there's a guy, there's actually someone. Yeah, well, I mean, like, I'm from Fort Stockton. So like, going to kind of feel like, you know, somebody, like, there's nobody, it becomes like, who becomes somebody, you know, a star, you know, Radney Foster: the funny thing is that, you know, people outside of the state of Texas have no earthly idea where it is. Right, you're down there around the coast? No, it's about 400 miles in there. So is it? No, it's about 400 miles from there. Yeah, it's really long border. Thomas Mooney: just like, split the difference. Yeah. Well, I mean, like, what, what impacted Del Rio growing up there, obviously, you know, learning both Spanish and English, but like, and, but like, what impacted the living down there have on your, your songwriting and like what you decided to put in songs? Radney Foster: Well, I think one was, there was always a history storytelling. Number two was that, you know, my father played and sang badly at times, you know, was not a great musician, but loved it. And on any given Saturday night, there's actually a song on the new record called greatest show on earth, it is about that. And there's a short story to go with it in the new book. Then it has a look, when you you know, when you read it, you go, there's the connection. But yeah, really, that was my biggest influence was having that musical connection to family. And, and all of these friends coming over on Saturday nights, and somebody brought the barbecue and somebody brought the beer and everybody brought an instrument. you couple that with the fact that, you know, I heard very traditional Mexican folk songs, my whole life and those harmonies and I mean, I know Kris Kristofferson is from Brownsville, and he talked about that, too, just those harmonies and and, and those chord changes really had a huge effect on me. So I mean, that was, you know, another part of it. That's another I think, piece of the pie of, you know, if you listen to raining on Sunday, that's this. That's, that's a, that's what bangle, is what it is. I mean, listen to the way that you know, those traditional Mexican love songs are put together. And then listen to that song. And you'll go Oh, yeah, exactly. Thomas Mooney: Yeah. And see, like on that first cover right there. You're kind of like in the Oh, yeah, mariachi kind of suit with tinge with the, with a Radney Foster: lizard, you know, the Native American lizard that from Southwest. Thomas Mooney: You mentioned the new record, and it has like the companion book, right? Like, what for you to see the stars? What, uh, I mean, had you been thinking about like doing something now? Radney Foster: I three years ago, I got pneumonia, and laryngitis so bad that I was unable to speak for six weeks. Hmm. And so about, you know, and then I had to do about six more weeks worth of vocal training, you know, physical, literally physical therapy, because you can't just go from that to Oh, I'm gonna go sing for two hours in front of a bunch of people in a van, you know, yet you can't just do that. And so I about three weeks in, I wrote a note to my wife, and I said, cuz I literally was going crazy. And I wrote down, I said, there's a short There's a song I wrote a few months back, and I think there might be a short story in it. And I'm gonna write this short story to keep from going crazy. And she said, she didn't even talk to me. She picked up the pan out of my hand and wrote down on the same sheet of paper, which I wish I still had. You should because you're driving me crazy. So, so I started in in the first piece that I wrote was Sycamore Creek, which is the last source story in the book. And when I got through, I thought, well, you know, this is just an exercise in you know, sort of exercising your brain and staying creative. And you know, who knows if this is going to be anything and I handed did to her and she was a journalist for many, many years and a magazine editor and she read it and said, congratulations, it's really great. And you should really think about continuing to write this way. So I started writing short stories, and I got about five in and I kind of knew the first two were inspired by songs. And then I wrote a third one. And I thought, well, hell, I'll just write a, oh, hey, there might be an idea for your next record, you know, go see if you can, you know, marry the literary side. And then I've found a great, great North Carolina publisher. It actually is, she's an author named Sherry Smith. I wrote a long story, but I was able to send her some short stories, she fell in love with them, and really coached me through a rewrite of one and, and kind of held my feet to the fire said, you know, you, you, she actually, she had me read a couple of different things, and then read me something of hers that she knew how to tear apart wasn't really tooting your own horn, just, you know, you know, how to tear your own stuff apart, right? You know, and so, she read the I read the two and I called her and she read this one to me over the phone, and she said, Okay, now, you know, look up, page four, paragraph two, in this particular short story, and I said, Okay, and I did, and she said, Ronnie, read that to me out loud. And then I read it. She said, No, that's fine. a paragraph is, as ever, I have read in anything. And I said, Well, you can't say that, because I know who you read. And she said, Yeah, but I'm gonna stick to that statement. She said, but here's the here's the problem that comes with it. First, you have to tell me why it's buried on page four, paragraph three. That's like, cuz I'm stupid enough that I don't know. I've buried the lede. It's the most diverse thing, right? And then she said, Yes. And she said, and here's the second and this is the hard part. And I said, Okay, she said, if you can write one that pretty, you got to write them all that pretty. So with that in mind, and the way I tore these, these other two short stories apart, go rewrite that thing, and hand it back to me. And so I spent about a week or 10 days on that short story, rewrote it, gave it back to her. And that was when she said, Okay, here's what you don't know. Congratulations, you knocked it out of the park. But here's what you don't know, is my publisher said, if you ever find something else that you want to publish, it's not your own will fund your own imprint. And so the first and she said, I'll make a bunch of calls to a bunch of other publishers for you Who are you know, have? I said, I don't want to work with anybody else, you know, I, because that kind of coaching. Yeah, was really important to me. And then also, she had skin in the game. Yeah, I mean, she's hurting her her name. And our reputation in the literary world was on the line just as much as I am. And she was going to be small and independent, the same way that we have a smaller record company. So when I said, Can we get, you know, 60 books and 60 CDs to these guys immediately, then you don't have a whole lot of chains and channels to have to go through and it's, it's worked out really well. Thomas Mooney: Yeah. I think you know, like, the one of the things I I've always liked about songwriters is the ones who they work the other side of the brain, or like a different channel of, of artistic creativity. You know, like Joey Lee's written a couple books and Radney Foster: like Rodney Kraus written a fantastic memoir. Yeah. Having China very sad. Thomas Mooney: Yeah, it's a really great book. And even like, if you look at like guy Clark, you know, he making guitars. Radney Foster: Yeah. I mean, he really is an art. Right. A great, great, great, great craftsman. You know, I mean, he any painted? You know, I mean, he paid he painted the cover of Willie Nelson stardust. Yeah. And so I mean, he, you really multitask, truly a renaissance man. Thomas Mooney: So, with that in mind, like what, what are you? What, what did that do as far as like, you know, helping your other creative juices, did you find something that you didn't know, that you had in you? Radney Foster: Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the things that it really goes back to that, you know, time of having to be quiet, and that self reflection that was necessary, because of it. And so, I, you know, I asked my wife for acting lessons for Christmas. And I ended up you know, taking a bunch of acting lessons for about a year and a half and I ended up with a small but great part in a film that just recently came out called beauty mark and I was the lead in a brand new musical that was done at the Tony Award winning Alliance Theatre in Atlanta. And I wrote a book and I'm currently writing a screenplay with my wife based on one of the short stories in the book. So my book sitting on somebody's desk in Hollywood made a guy call me and say, I want to have somebody maybe, you know, rather than like just licensing a bunch of songs, write these songs from the ground up. And would you be interested in I said, Yeah, so we're dancing around that. I don't know if any of the things will come together. But yeah, it's just looking at different ways of storytelling, and exercising my brain in that way. And I think that helped me, you know, stay fresh and stay excited about writing songs. Thomas Mooney: Riley? Well, I mean, that's, this is one of the questions I was thinking of, coming up here was, obviously, you've been writing songs for a long time, you've been playing music for a long time. And in those early days, I'm assuming, you know, like, the ideas are just kind of coming out all the time, just because, you know, you've not written about everything, but like, at some point, Do you ever feel Is there ever like that? A feeling of, I'm gonna run out of ideas or like, Radney Foster: no, things you do is you you, you know, there's really only a handful of ideas. I mean, if you read the Greeks, you know, theater, then you read Shakespeare, you go, Oh, okay. Well, it's Thomas Mooney: really only you know, the binary kind Radney Foster: of right, you know, there is, you know, Fred Foster, who was Chris Gustafson's record producer and, and at times, and then also discovered him, one of the guys that discovered him and his first publisher told him he said, there's only you know, two kinds of songs and, and Chris one, what are they? He goes, there's, you know, boy meets girl, and all the variations that go with that, boy breaks up with girl boy gets girl back girl hates guy after they're married. I mean, you know, it's like, all whatever it is, you know, they break up finally, somebody dies, you know, there's all of those variations on personal relationships. He said, and then there's God. And he said, You need you a gospel song. And Chris went off and wrote, why the Lord? You know, like, Oh, well, that's how you do that. But yeah, I think I think the, the unique, the, the thing about songs is you get the opportunity to tell that same story uniquely. And that's true of a novel or a short story or a movie. You know, if you start studying them, they, they, they, they all have interesting twists and turns, but really, they're, they're harkening back to an archetype. And, you know, yes. The, you know, the hero wins the day has been written as a movie a gazillion times. It's just hasn't been written by me the way I would write it. And, and, and if you do it uniquely enough, somebody go, oh, wow, that's clever. I didn't think of that. You know, silly. I mean, you're Yeah, you know, and you're, it's like, are you writing a tragedy? Are you writing a comedy? And same is true of songwriters. Like does the guy get the girl in the end, you know, is the, the, you know, I was talking with with john Randall, who he and Gosh, why am I drawn blank on his name? Bill Anderson, he and Bill Anderson wrote whiskey lullaby and, you know, john said he asked bill the classic question, which is, do we kill her? You know, you know, it's a bluegrass Song For God's sake, can we kill her? He said, hell Let's kill them both. And they did it's amazing you know, it's great. Thomas Mooney: Yeah. You know, you you've gotten where you've written with a whole bunch of people you've obviously early on in Randy Rogers career you were a big Radney Foster: an avid you know, it's been rare that they've done a record that I haven't had so long Thomas Mooney: I guess like you you produce roller coaster right Radney Foster: I did as a produce the roller coaster record in the first hour produced the one that was self titled Randy Rogers band record, the following one on which I cannot remember the title off the top of my head but it was those three records on on on the two on universal. The first Thomas Mooney: What did you see in an early Randy Rogers that that you kind of Radney Foster: like easy, really a guy with you Just that Thunderbolt rasp of a voice, and really great musicians who I knew were young, but man, they were just working so hard. You knew they were trying to take their musicianship really seriously. And that they were, you know, nobody was going to outwork them. And so Randy kept and Randy's persistence, bugging me and bugging me. But they were opening up a bunch of shows for me. And he said, I want you to bruise my record, I want you to lose my record. So I said, Well, let me hear what you got. And he said, Well, I think we got all 12 songs. And on the roller coaster record, he's I think we got 12 songs. And I said, Well, let me listen to him. And I said, Well, I think you got four, you might have five, but you'd have to rewrite in and he's like, it took me a year to write those 12 songs. So we'll get busy. You know, get busy start writing a song a day started co writing a lot of songs. And we I said we're gonna write some songs, too. And so we wrote about half a dozen, and I think three of them ended up on the record and love must follow you around. It's tonight's not the night. Right. And then another one that was a hit. I can't remember. I've lose track. You know, though. Yeah. So I mean, it was, it was a really fun adventure. They were really green. Oh, can somebody take me home? That was another one. We wrote off that record. And, you know, they were really green, but they really, you knew that they were going to do well in life. You know, you knew that. Like I said, they're just there. We're gonna make it work. Thomas Mooney: Right. You know, the, I say this I probably on every podcast and every people listening probably like, Why do you always say this, but like, I'm just infatuated with like, the the CO writing, we're right. Like, you know, it's these two people would go into a room or three people and make something out of nothing. Right, right. I'm, like, what has has your Radney Foster: process of going into rooms with people changed over the absolutely what's like the end, it's changed a lot. Since I started writing prose, I walk in with something I walk in with a paragraph these days. You know, so Well, here's an idea. I don't know what it means. I don't know what it is, you know, but here's a little essay I wrote, you know, and the, so that changes things. And I think, you know, I write I still write as many songs on my own, almost as I do, I probably write a third of the songs that I write on my own and two thirds with other folks. I still shoot for, you know, writing 50 songs a year, song a week. don't always get there. I won't get there this year. But it's July, and I've written, I don't know, eight or 10. So yeah, you know, I know, I'll slow down in the fall, and we'll end up with another, you know, 20 or 30. Thomas Mooney: Right? See, I find that amazing, too, is the I know a lot of people, especially going early on, they're like, you know, I it's kind of like the Randy example you just threw out there. We have 12 songs that I wanted to do. And then there's other people who write, when you find out there were Springsteen rights, you know, 30 or 40. Each record of 10 men? Yeah. Oh, Radney Foster: what a well, what is the other? Well, part of it was, my first job was I got signed as a staff songwriter to a publishing company is my job to write a song a week, you know, and then the other was, very early in my career, when I was, I was driving a van for a movie company in Nashville. And it was a temporary job six weeks long. And Willie had a cameo in the movie. And so All I knew is I just, you know, we're good close to mark, because you're picking up talent, instead of, you know, a bunch of a bunch of gear, that's like, okay, and, you know, and I, you know, had the sign for the film company, and they said, go to this hotel and pick these two guys up, and I did and it was, you know, Willie Nelson. And they told me if they, if I talked to the talent that they would fire me. Over in two weeks, I'm going to talk to Willie, I don't really care if they fire me, you know. And so I very polite, I just said, you know, I'm a huge fan. We have a mutual friend in Austin. And I left it at that, you know, and, and then as he was getting out the rest of it, you know, they were on their own, and I didn't bug them. And then when I was getting out, I said, Willie, you know, I'm trying to figure out how to be a singer songwriter. Do you have any advice for young guy like me from Texas trying to figure this out? And he goes, Yes, I do. He said the first 100 songs don't count. Keep writing. And at that point, I'd written about 30 songs and thought I was really cool because I'd written 30 songs. And I was like, Whoa, Okay, you know, and when you realize that, you know, crazy was probably in his first 100 songs. Yeah. Thomas Mooney: Well, the thing is I fell in a lot of that is it's, it's a obviously, it's, it's good advice to tell somebody to keep on writing, but it also, you know, thins the herd as far as people who maybe weren't, Radney Foster: right, aren't you, you realize that, you know, writers, right? You know, I am constantly writing on something, either, you know, and these days, it's three things. I'm working on a screenplay. I'm writing a novel, and I'm writing songs. You know, I worked with a woman day before yesterday, that she's both an actress and a songwriter. And so we're trying to write a one woman show for her. You know, I'm, I wrote a song with Eddie that he my guitar player, he's making a record. And he's, you know, he and I wrote one together, that is one of the songs on his, his record, I'm going to try to sit down and write with the guys from Midland, who I met and, you know, you know, Ed said, Yes, absolutely. We would love to write songs with events. So, you know, I'm always writing to something, I'm, I've written two songs that I think might go on my next album. And, you know, I am up before everybody else is with a cup of coffee in and, uh, you know, Mac computer banging on a word, Doc. Yeah. A novel. So Thomas Mooney: is, is there like, a, I don't necessarily want to say like, a prime hour for you to work in, like you, it depends on Radney Foster: what I'm doing. Yeah, I tend to work on the screenplay and afternoons and evenings with, with my wife. I tend to work on pros, like the, the novel early, early in the morning, before anybody else is up, when the house is still quiet for a couple hours. And then songwriting is generally either kind of tend to to, you know, was pretty typical, or I'll, and I get awakened at, you know, 230 in the morning, and I have to get out of bed and honor in the basement and just write a song. Thomas Mooney: Going back to the whole, you know, how many songs do you feel that you need before you start making a record? Like, what what happens to the songs that, that don't make the cut? Do they Radney Foster: sometimes they end up on, on on subsequent records? Sometimes they get cut by other people? Sometimes they're just sitting in a catalogue. They get pitched by? Yeah, my publishers, but you know, somebody doesn't cut them. Nothing happens to them. Thomas Mooney: Yeah. I, Radney Foster: I went through with them, you know, recently did a sort of this, because I have so many years of being with so many different publishers, we did this sort of, like, let's gather everything together in one place. And I realized, I've written close to 1000 songs. Yeah. You know, so it's like, how is that possible? Thomas Mooney: Yeah. It that that's, you know, just a mind blowing number because it's like forgotten 50 songs a year, a year for 20 years will get you there. Obviously, like I said, earlier, you know, you you've been playing around for a long time. How do songs change? How do you feel? Do you feel differently about songs that you've written early on in your career, as you've grown older? Or do they kind of just always feel like a transport you back into that moment? Radney Foster: What do you think they transport you back? Some of them? the good ones? Do some of them you go, Oh, God, how did I ever write that? You know, what was I thinking? You know, and then but the really good ones, you, you know, you realize you had to be that age to write them. You know, I had to be in my 20s to write Texas 1980 I couldn't have written that in my 50s. You know, that's, that's a, that's a young man full of piss and vinegar kind of song. You know, I mean, it's, and it is about, you know, beating the odds, and about, you know, putting everything that you possibly can into something, regardless of the consequences and the risk, you know, that's what young men do. If they want to be a rodeo star, or if they want to be a country singer, or if they want to be whatever it is that they want to be, you have to, you know, you you, you sleep less and work more and give it all you got, and you you get some passion about it, right? So you got to be that age to make that believable. So I stand by those early things. Thomas Mooney: Yeah, I mean they've been around for a while so I mean they say like, you know like my first earliest memory of hearing you was that first Del Rio nobody wins kind of cool thanks. But that's been enjoyable talking with you he pleasures all mine man. Radney Foster: Let me know when this thing here so I can put on a pair of headphones when I'm walking in my neighborhood. Thomas Mooney: Yeah for sure. Thank you so much. Take care you as well.